Title: Are You Underpaid? How to Win Your Personal Injury Case & Maximize Your Settlement
Downloaded: 2026-04-10 15:00:52

[Music] Welcome back to another episode of the AutoAcctorneys podcast brought to you by the AutoAcctorneys Group. I'm your host, attorney Ali, attorney Ali on social media. Today I've got the pleasure of being joined by a repeat guest, Richishi Patney of Patney Law Group. Rishi, thank you so much for coming. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> And we are joined by the attorney that introduced us actually, attorney Steve Litner with Litner Deanian. Steve, welcome. >> Thanks for having me. >> Absolutely. Steve, I wanted you to know that I know your office is in Dicab.

You're right off of Brier Cliff Road. You guys, I I take great pride in our building. I try to brand the outside of the building. It's direct to consumer. That's what the podcast is about. I envy your building. You guys have one of the best murals on the outside of the building that I've ever seen in my life. It's I don't know whose idea it was. I don't know if you're the brainchild behind the creativity, but it's fantastic. If you're into cab, I'm sure you've seen off of Brier Cliff and Clifton. >> Just out the Clifton.

Yeah. It's uh where Brier Cliffe and Johnson split across from the uh the Kroger Sage Hill Shopping Center. >> It is right across from the Kroger. It's a It's literally like this triangle where there's like three rows that come together. Fantastic spot. I'm a huge proponent of access to justice. I think more attorneys should get out of the high-rise buildings where people that need our help don't even know that the attorneys that are going to help them are there. So kudos to you. I've been a longtime fan and and I look up to you.

>> Well, thank you. Um let me tell you about the mural since you asked. Please. Um so first off, we bought the building in 2015 and I remember when we bought the building. So we're directly across from Pitch and Putt, which is a liquor store. There's a there's a shooting range down Zonalite. And I think Arman made the joke like, "Where else can you practice law and also shop for your alcohol and shoot guns and get your haircut?" Um, it is it's a great building. Uh, it fits our personality real well. Uh, one of the things that Arman and I did not want, we did not want a high-rise.

We did not want, you know, you have to go and check in and ride up a secure elevator to get to our office. And we wanted to be, hey, if you want to come visit us, our door is open. like open our door, say hi, come grab a cup of coffee, come have a soda, we want you to come in. We value the relationship. We want to talk to you about your case. Uh not deterring clients from coming in uh to to find out what's going on with their case. Right. >> Right. >> Clients should have access to their lawyers. >> Absolutely.

Huge proponent of that. >> The mural uh is actually a very interesting story. So, one of my friends was driving by our building coming up that side and he called me and he's a defense lawyer and he calls me with the most wacky asinine topics. So, like when I get the phone call I'm like, "Oh god, it's going to be he's going to talk to me about some nonsense that I don't even know what he's talking about, right?" And he gave me the idea on the mural. He was like, "You should paint the side of your building with a logo of your you know what you're doing." And I was like, that's actually that's a that's a good idea.

Like maybe we should paint the side of our building. Uh and then that in turned into the mural and we hired um we kicked around kind of what what to do, how to paint it, do we just put our logo on it, do we do something else? And that turned into the mural, which we did with Cat Lana, who's a a street artist in Atlanta. It's pretty well known. >> Shout out Cat Lana. >> Yeah. and he came and painted the mural and brainstormed the idea and we did it based on sort of historic Atlanta figures and then we added some of ourselves on there and it's it's been fun.

We got picked up by like Atlanta Scoop and some other things like that, ATL Scoop and uh it's it's definitely been something that we've enjoyed having on our building and and kind of adding some flavor to the neighborhood. >> It's a history lesson and uh and marketing at the same time. that tells you it's a it's a billboard and and history lesson together. >> The best part about it is so the the lawyer's wife is my wife's maid of honor and I called her and I said, "Hey, your husband had a great idea." Like she's like, "How'd you come up with the mural?" I was like, "It's your husband's idea." Great idea.

I think she said something like, you know, if like 90% of his ideas were like that, that'd be great. It's only about 10% of ideas that his ideas that make sense. spoken like a a spouse and partner for sure. >> That's great. >> Uh you mentioned Richishi you're saying how it's authentically part of the neighborhood. You guys also do something that now it just seems like I copy everything you guys do but I I assure you we just happen to align on our values and how we approach taking care of people. You guys do an annual event, family-based event.

I think it's phenomenal. Uh tell us briefly about that. So, we do a uh like a carnival event. Uh it started uh eight years ago. The only year we didn't do the carnival, we did a drive-in movie theater. It was during co >> I remember that one. >> Drive-in movie theater instead of the >> carnival, right? >> Yeah, I think so. Yeah, you came to that one, right? Absolutely. >> Yeah, it was awesome. It was a lot of fun. So, it started about eight years ago and uh it started with this idea that hey, we were doing well and I wanted to throw a party for my kid.

My kid was 2 years old at the time and I have some really fond memories of my dad worked for AT&T and they used to have a family day and I remember going in and seeing the the the warehouse or the factory and meeting his co-workers and they'd have cotton candy and things like that. I remember I just have some very fond memories of that, right? And so I was like, well, maybe I can recreate that >> for my law firm. Maybe we can do an annual event that my kids remember. >> And that's how it started. >> And we had uh we had 235 people the first year.

Last year we had over a thousand people, which was great. >> That's amazing. >> We've grown it every year. We've added on every year, but essentially we rent out a big field at the top end of the perimeter and everything is free for 4 hours. the rides, the games, the prizes, the food, the drink. Um, we get mechanical rides, we get bounce houses, tattoo artists. Uh, this year we're adding like a big arts and crafts station with sand art and, uh, candy art and tie-dye and things like that. I don't know. Lots of art stations.

Um, but this year is 90s themed, so we're gonna have the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles there. >> Oh, I gotta be there this year. Who's your Who's your favorite? >> Donatello. >> Okay. >> I love Donatello. >> Michelangelo. >> Michelangelo. >> Michelangelo. >> Michelangelo. Yeah. >> Uh Steve, when when is that event? Let's go ahead and plug that. >> Uh it's October 19th from 2 to 6 p.m. >> Awesome. Uh we'll get on our social media posts. We'll clip this out and we'll we'll put a link out for you. >> Awesome. >> Um we This is a perfect segue.

Uh, I didn't mean to use you to promote my own, but we also hold an annual fall festival. So, this year, ours is going to be on October 4th. Um, ours is not quite as large as yours. Uh, we don't have that reach because we are in our own building. So, we we just take over the parking lot with food trucks and a lot of the same stuff. Bounce house, live music. Uh, everything's free. My idea of it was when I moved from California to Georgia, I was technically coming back home. I I'm in the community that I actually grew up in.

And I just wanted to literally be a part of the community. I wanted to do something. And because I had young kids like you, my natural inclination was to go family oriented with the petting zoo and the face painting and all that stuff. >> It's great. It's it's fantastic. I mean, there's there's nothing better than seeing the kids run around. And >> I'm sure your kids are like mine. They're like, "Dad, dad, when's the when's the party next year? When are you doing it?" >> Well, my older one is now uh she turned she's turning 12.

After last year's event, she had turned into a critic. She had been there a couple years. Last year, she asked me, she's like, "When you plan next year's, can I please help you plan it so it can be better?" >> That's awesome, though. I mean, like, that's that's what you want, right? Like you want your kids engaged. Like that's so cool that she's like thinking about, hey, how can I uh how can I do how can I do this? How can I add some value here? Like she's learning maybe event planning and marketing and y >> like how great is that?

Like she's learning some real life skills out of your event. >> Yeah. >> And maybe it translates to eventually being entrepreneurial or finding a field that she, you know, wants to a career or an occupation. Maybe it doesn't. Yeah, I just like the fact that she is proactive. That's >> that that's the the best gift I could ask for from her. >> I'll tell you, my youngest, Maya, she uh she looks forward to it every year. We we went to our first uh Litner Deanian uh fall festival um 5 years ago and uh and every year she asked me, "Hey, are we going to that three heads fall festival?" >> The heads and I was at Three Heads.

She's like, "Yeah, everything that you know, all of all of their their um had had, you know, it's his, Arman, and Shay's face on it." And so she she calls it the three heads festival. >> That's awesome. >> We keep referencing Arman. Um Arman is Steve's partner, Arman Dean. He's also Persian. So there's another Thai. So we've got a guest that's Persian friendly. So mom, I know you listen to every episode. You see this beautiful face? His partner is Persian. We'll have to have Arman on as well. >> You should.

Yeah. >> Steve, you may or may not be familiar with the podcast, but we are auto accident based, but we cover so much more. Uh, our brand is we take care of you. And so, we do our best to provide content direct to consumer about things that they may not otherwise know to think about. I I think of the Donald Rumsfeld quote, uh, there are things that we don't know that we don't know. So, I'm hoping that the content for our listeners lets them know that now there are things that they know that they don't know and then eventually through more research that they can know what they know.

>> Yeah. >> So, in some universe that made sense what I just said. >> Yeah. Some something like that. So, uh, since we've got two brilliant litigating minds, I want to take you guys and use you to discuss the human element of personal injury cases on a practical matter for consumers. You guys have the litigating background. you you know what it takes to present a story in trial, but let's extrapolate that and come to the forefront of what the clients deal with after an accident or an injury and sort of have a conversation about how those common issues are either handled.

Maybe we the three of us handle things a little bit differently each way. Um, and hopefully through the conversation the clients or listeners can get something out of it and maybe if they are involved in an accident, maybe it's a current client of of one of ours and they're like, "Oh, maybe I should start making notes about this." >> Yeah, would love to do that. >> Awesome. >> That'd be great. >> Uh, I'm going since you're the guest of honor today, Rishi has become very accustomed to that seat. So, I'm going to let you start.

>> You should have just told me. I would have sat over there. I mean, >> I don't think he would have let you. who would have been like, "Oh, good to see you, Steve. Why don't you just take this one?" Um, let's start out with uh maybe just one common thing or issue that you see a lot of your clients have had to deal with and how you've how your approach has been to helping them through that issue. >> Yeah. Okay. So, you know what we handle are personal injury cases, right? And let's just take a car crash, right?

So there's someone gets injured and they're treating for the medical injuries. And I think a lot of people when they're looking at these claims, a lot of lawyers get tied into, well, how much are the bills? The case value is tied to how much the bills are or maybe they go a little deeper. What's the injury? What's the severity of the injury? What's the extent of the injury? What do the findings mean? I'm always bewildered that some attorneys don't even bother to understand the injury, but that's, you know, the next part.

But then there's this whole element of general damages, aka pain and suffering, right? And pain and suffering is different for each person. It's personal, right? Everyone everyone is different. Uh, everyone has different things that they enjoy. Everyone has different things that they they lose out on as a result of an injury from a crash. And for me, finding ways to humanize the client, finding ways to present them not just as a name or the insurance company might know them as a file number, right? Finding a way to to to have them jump off the page to an adjuster or a lawyer and say, "Oh, wow.

this person is vibrant, this person lost out on all these things, they can't do these specific things that adds to the value of a case. So, I call them the human damages, right? How did someone suffer as a result of the crash that they went through? Um, and, uh, Rishi and I were talking before about like day in the life videos. So, that's just to start off, that's a standard thing that we do after surgeries. If you have a surgery, we are almost always hiring a vendor to do a day in the life video to go out and and take video of the client in the condition that they are what they're unable to do.

Um it that adds a tremendous amount of value. You know, there's the a picture tells a picture is a thou worth a thousand words and you know, we joke that a video is worth a thousand pictures. Uh being able to present your clients in a dynamic visual way I think makes a lot of difference especially in this day and age. People don't read the consumption is >> 30 second clips minute clips right >> it's a visual the the visuals are incredibly powerful >> incredibly powerful. So we find ways to to add those both pre-litigation and during litigation.

Uh sometimes you've got clients who, you know, maybe they don't want to litigate or maybe it makes sense to try to get it resolved pre-litigation. I'll tell you a story on one. We had a young girl who uh we represented a college student who fractured her patella and she could she lived in a two-story house. She couldn't walk up the stairs. Her bedroom was on the second floor. She had to sleep on the couch in the family room for a long time. Um, she was a sophomore in college and she was premed and it caused her to take a semester off and ultimately delay her education which delays her future, her earnings, may have impacted her grades.

How do you show that to an insurance company? How do you show that to an opposing council? um this client really didn't want to litigate if we didn't have to. >> But we also knew that litigation would drive more value into the case. And so we called the defense lawyer and we're like, "What do you need?" Like, "What do you need from us to get true value on this case without us having to do the dog and pony show, without us having to go through Britain discovery, without you having to depose her?" and they set up a meeting with her, our client at her house, invited defense lawyer, said come on into her home, meet her parents, meet her siblings, look around, let her tell you in her own words like how this impacted her.

>> This was had suit been filed or this >> suit had not suited not been filed >> but they had already >> we had sent we had sent the demand was a big policy. We had sent a demand. They had made an offer that was nowhere near what we felt was the full value of the case. And you know, when that happens, you're you're sitting there going, "Well, I either file suit and I initiate the process and eventually maybe they offer reasonable money or maybe we can have a conversation now that allows us to get to a number that we ultimately are going to get to and save some of the hassle and headache.

Mhm. >> Um, not every insurer is willing to do that. Not everyone thinks creatively enough to get outside that box, >> right? >> But it was one where we're like, well, let's try. >> It sounds like there was a big policy in place. >> No harm. Yeah. U$1 or2 million dollar policy, something like that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, we're not talking about your Georgia state minimum. >> No. >> Cases here. Rishi, you've had uh the experience of being on both sides. you've done defense work and you're currently doing plaintiff's work.

When Steve's telling us about he had mentioned he he reached out to defense council and said what do you need to drive value? I think you know I'm thinking about the listener being like wait what do you mean the plaintiff's attorney is talking to the defense attorney asking what they can do to help. What's that look like? is is the defense attorney going to they're looking for authority because technically they're well technically the defendant is their client but the person paying the or the entity paying the bills is the insurance company right because it's the insurance company's money.

So what does that look like on the defense side if you can share a little bit of that? >> Sure. I'll give you an example. Um uh when I when I was on on the defense side uh doing trucking defense um and we had a case where a um a police officer, a Gwet County police officer um his vehicle had hit uh you know it it was raining and his vehicle had hit the median wall and became disabled and it was sitting perpendicular to oncoming traffic in the HOV lane. Right. So the aortion like half of his vehicle was kind of jutting out into the HOV lane and um and a bus that had dropped off some college um it was a college party to go uh it was the bus had dropped everyone off the from from Athens and uh I think they had gone this was after the Auburn game and um and and they had and but he was going back to the depot and um and was um had one of his headlights blown out um and knew about it um but was continuing down and you know we thought this is a rainy day case and and there's not much he could have done but he was going incredibly too he was going way too fast for the conditions um but he was traveling that HOV lane with an empty bus and um came around a corner and hit the the police officer at close to 75 miles an hour.

>> Wow. Um now the the the injuries are catastrophic. Absolutely catastrophic. The only pro the only thing is what you read on in the medical records. You know we we know that there is severe brain damage. There's all kinds of orthopedic injuries. Um, but what you read from the records really pales in comparison to the moment we got a day in the life video where after having a lot of the orthopedic surgeries, they they showed um the the plaintiff's lawyer sent us a video showing his client going through rehab at Shepherd Center.

And um but before like the first part of that video was clips like like home movie clips of um him at his kid's birthday. Um him golfing with buddies and and then him um it was it was a recording that he made for his wife for her birthday and um and shows how he speaks and and them walking and and basically engaged in just you know fun things with his family. And then it goes to pictures of the crash. And then it shows him then it goes to kind of like the the lengthier video which is him going through rehab and him learning to walk again.

Um and and him learning how to speak again cuz he lost um he lost fine motor skills in his extremities. He lost um through the the amount of atrophy in his legs. Had to to learn how to walk again. Um but but the cognitive deficit um that was it's what made it a no-brainer on a $5 million policy to to pay the limits. And once we received the video, um the like that day, we burned a copy of it and FedExed it to the adjuster, overnighted it, and said, "You really need to pay the limits on this case." And sure enough, the that week they they tended limits.

Well, so let me weigh in on that. Right. So the as a defense lawyer, he wants that evidence because he wants to be able to go to his adjuster and say, "Look, you got to pay this. Like you, this is not just a set of medical records and some, you know, diagnosis, right? This is this is this guy's life, right?" And so I wanted to kind of weigh in on something he said. We have Shepherd Center in Atlanta. It's f She Shepard Center is a fantastic facility. It's it's just cream of the crop, right? And if you've never Some people don't even know what Shepherd Center is, right?

Like I didn't even know that existed. People that know what Shepherd Center is but have never been down there, have never been in there, have never had to visit a family member or a client, have no concept, right? They have no idea what it looks like, what the clients go through. I was down there a few months ago. But we have a client who got paralyzed, hit as a pedestrian and paralyzed and they had him in this like robotic uh walking machine and they were doing this therapy trying to get him to learn how to walk again and use his legs and it's I mean I took a video of it.

I was like this is amazing, right? And if you don't do that, if you don't go visit your client and you don't see what they're going through and you don't take videos of how their speech is different or how they can't do things, right, you're sending a demand with a set of records that say Shepherd Center $60,000 in bills therapy, right? Like it doesn't track, it doesn't translate. The adjuster looks at it and goes, "Okay, yeah, okay. They did some they did some OT, they did some PT." You're like, "No, that's not what they're doing." Right?

like that's not what this is. And to to kind of build upon that, to think about like a personal situation, we have a relative with dementia. Okay. You hear the word demention, you think, okay, you kind of have your preconceptions about what that means. >> Sure. >> You know what what that translates to. If you haven't gone to a memory care facility, if you haven't communicated with that person, you have no idea. Like, you can't you can think about what it might mean and you can think it might be something, but until you actually see it and and live it, you can't you you can't find the empathy for it.

And and then you can't really value it. Like adjusters and lawyers have trouble valuing these things that they don't understand and that they can't see. >> I'm glad you just used two words there, empathy and value. When you're able to express through that video what your client is going through, what this person is dealing with. Is it the empathy of the adjuster that you're changing? What is the true >> value of that video? What's what's going on there? >> It's not necessarily the empathy of the adjuster.

But you know, adjusters are are risk managers and and and and they're there to assess when they're looking at settlement value, they're they're looking at well well what is it that we can resolve this case for based on what is our potential exposure at trial? And so to the extent that it's getting the adjuster to see what the jury is going to see and and if they are a seasoned adjuster and under if they've been sitting in the back of a courtroom when a case that they decided um when they roundt this with their insurers and their consortium is um we're we're going to try this case.

Uh we're not going to offer any more money on it. Um and if they've had to if they've been the proponents of that decision at that round table and they've decided we are not going to make any more settlement offers, we're going to try this case and then they've had to sit in the back of a courtroom and trial has gone in a way that they didn't expect. Um or it it went the way that they expected, but you know, but they they've just got a sense that the jury's buying it. that gut-wrenching feeling in the in the the pit of the the adjusters stomach knowing that we could be looking at an excess verdict here.

Um, I think most seasoned veterans will in that industry will tell the younger they when they're mentoring them. Don't ever be caught in that position. Don't ever roll the dice on a case where you and and you're in that position where you're wondering whether you're going to have a job after you have to explain what went wrong, why you thought um this is a case that we should try and then you end up with an excess verdict. >> Rishi just referenced an excess verdict. What what does that mean to our listeners?

So, an excess verdict is when you get a verdict that is higher than the amount of insurance coverage that the uh defendant had to pay for uh the injuries that they caused. >> So, what is the practical implication? Sorry, I'm trying to lead you guys. >> Yeah, let's stay on damages. Let's stay on damages. Save that for one of my partners. They'll uh they'll come down and talk to you about excess verdicts and what it means. But but but but essentially I in most cases um there's a lot of legal mechanics about what happens when you get an excess verdict in bad faith and all that.

But at the end of the day um you know in most in most cases um a an insurance company when they decide we're going to roll the dice and try a case and we're not going to offer we're not going to accept the the the last demand. We're not going to make any more settlement offers. We're going to see what the jury says. And when the jury comes back with a number above the policy limits, they've only they've only reserved cases, even if they've fully reserved it. That means that they've reserved the full amount of the policy to pay out on this claim.

And then you get a judgment above that, they're now paying on unreserved amounts. And that, you know, in in the way the insurance industry works under their best practices, that is very bad for their ability to get reinsurance because they're they're not doing they're not following best practices when it comes to properly reserving cases. >> And that's that is what's that that's why it, you know, in their field an excess verdict is so damning. taking it back to damages. I want to take it back to damages here for a second because I want to touch on something that Rishi said is most of the time you don't want to find out in the courtroom on either side what your problems are with the case, right?

Like as a plaintiff's attorney, you don't want to find out that your client lied to you and they had a history of something that you just didn't find in discovery but the other side had. And as a defense lawyer, I assume I've never did defense work. I I don't know how I could have beaten up on the uh the the injured folk out there that that deserve a recovery. And I' I've just have a problem with philosophically uh doing that. Um but as a defense lawyer, I assume that you don't want to find out how great of a pliff that the plaintiff is or how significant the injuries played a role in the in the person's life.

You don't want to find that stuff out at trial, right? >> You want to try to you want to try to figure that out before trial. And so if you can show that to the other side, they can get you more money on the case and you can try to get the case done without putting it in the hands of 12 jurors to decide how much to award you. But I wanted to give you I wanted to give you an example actually came up this morning. So, I was on the phone with a client this morning, and it is a it is different than the case I told you about earlier.

It is a run-of-the-mill car crash. It has the defendant has a $25,000 policy, and our client has $25,000 in add-on. So, the maximum recovery on this case is $50,000. There is probably no element of bad faith or extra contractual recovery on this case. the facts just don't play out that way and I won't get into the nuances on it. Right? Our client has about $7,500 in medicals currently. And part of the conversation about how do you how do you humanize this client to the insurance company so that they feel like they might have to pay the 25,000, right?

How do you document and support what the client is going through? So that to me was twofold. I spent an hour talking to this client this morning and counseling her on what she could give us that might support what she was saying, how her life was impacted. So, some of that tracked to she wasn't better. Well, how many times are you having neck issues? What are those neck issues? Well, I'm still having them once a week. Okay. What happens when you have them once a week? I two I have to take two or three days off.

I can't sit at my computer. Okay, like that sounds like a big interruption in your life. What did the doctor say? And you go back and look at the records and the doctor says you should follow up. Well, you didn't follow up. The doctor said that you might need trigger point injections or maybe an epidural. What are those things? What are they what do those things mean for you? Should you should you have those things? Like part of it is having that dialogue with your clients so that they understand how to present their injury, right?

But not even just talking about the injury, talking about the general damages, the pain and suffering, right? This is a a woman in her uh 40s or 50s. Uh it has interrupted her spousal relationship. It has interrupted uh things that she likes doing. So, uh, I believe for this woman it's gardening. She really likes gardening. Well, she's having trouble doing that. She's having trouble looking down and, you know, pulling the weeds out of the garden. How do you how do you present that? How do you do you get pictures of her garden?

Do you get do you do you get pictures? Do you talk to neighbors about she won garden of the month last month, you know, before the crash and now her garden is overgrown with weeds? How do you how do you present that? Right? And then there was this wage loss issue with her. It's like, how do you present the wage loss claim? Well, this is a woman who worked two jobs. She's working two jobs. She's working 8 to 12 and then she takes a break and she works from 2 to 11. I mean, she is working all day every day and she had been at the part-time job for three years and she had been at the full-time job for a year and the crash caused such significant pain that she was unable to do her job and she had to go to the doctor and she had going to the doctor took her away from being able to do her job and she was getting paid hourly and unfortunately the the presentation of the wage loss claim doesn't didn't really meet didn't really meet the criteria of how we would present it.

We need a disability note holding you out from work. We need employer verification >> written by a physician >> written by a physician. We need employer verification written by your employer that you missed the time from work. And her employer is like a national company and they have to go through all this bureau bureaucracy to get the document. And so she's like, I I've been trying to get this document. They won't give it to me. I don't have a doctor's note because I don't I work a desk job and I wasn't held out from work, but I had to go to all these doctor's appointments and this therapy and and then I'd be in pain, so I'd have to lie down.

I'd have to take PTO. Um and so we we sat there this morning and talked about how do you how do you document this? How do you get evidence to show these things, right? Because you can paint this picture of what went on in this person's life. And even if you can't tie it to a special damage, a particular dollar amount, even if you can't say she makes $20 an hour and she missed 80 hours of work and that math is X, don't ask me to do math off the top of my head. I cannot. Okay? But that is a special damage.

That is a calculable to the number amount of wages lost. That doesn't take into account what this woman went through. The part-time job that she had been at for 3 years was a small employer that was not subject to FMLA because she was taking time away for doctor's appointments because she was taking time away because of pain. She was told by her employer, "We can't continue to employ you." She was a senior tech representative for this employer. She'd been there for three years. She's a senior. It was in her job title.

They said, 'Look, if you can't work, we can't have you. Her hours, she was missing hours. Her last paycheck, she worked eight hours instead of 20. And she resigned because she didn't want to be fired. She resigned in late January. Her crash was in October. She was still very much in the throws of treatment. She treated until April of 2025. This woman lost her part-time job. She lost income. She lost part of her identity. Okay, let's talk about that. You you tie a lot of people tie their identity to what they do.

And when you lose what you do, when you lose that familiarity, that creates depression, anxiety, fear, stress, all these things. So, here's this woman that because of this crash, she lost hours. She had to resign from her job. She hasn't found a replacement yet because God knows it's not easy to find a part-time job these days. Right? And she lost part of her identity. How do you show that? How do you show that to the insurance company so that when you send that $25,000 demand, they don't respond with she has $7,400 in bills.

We're going to offer you $7,900. Like, sorry, but screw you. Like that's I have a human being that I'm representing who has been through more than what $7,400 shows on paper. And to me, it's how do you show that? How do you how do you translate the losses that that client of yours has sustained in a way that creates value for to be awarded by a jury or to be paid by an insurance company in advance of being awarded by a jury? >> That's a million-dollar question, right? And I don't think that there is a black and white response for because on the other side earlier in the conversation we were talking about the the practical matter of that video.

The day in the life of that makes sense for the catastrophic cases. You're not hiring a vendor for a day in the life of on a $25,000 case. But what's what what the value of that was for the adjuster was to see what their true exposure could be if it goes into litigation. So now you're dealing with an an insurance adjuster who is determining how much exposure the insurance company has. Rishi, when you were talking about excess verdicts before we we pivoted, it's in terms of for very practically speaking for our listeners is that you are for all intents and purposes limited your your recovery is limited to whatever insurance amount is available.

And I tell clients all the time that we can absolutely sue the defendant individually, but we work on a contingency fee basis. If you have essentially a judgment proof defendant, we'll go get a massive verdict and then you can share 33% or 40% of that piece of paper with me, but we're not going to get >> it's worth the piece of paper it's printed on. >> Right? >> I had this conversation with someone yesterday where I think I was telling you about it before the podcast. They suffered facial fractures.

They need surgery. Uh they hit head-on. They were transported to Grady. $25,000 in coverage. >> No uninsured motorist coverage. No other coverage. And if we send the demand and it gets accepted, they have 25K. That doesn't scratch the surface. It doesn't even come close to making that person whole. But what's your alternative? If you don't and I have this conversation with clients, if you don't send that demand, okay, you file suit, you go through litigation, you spend money, you spend time, you try the case, two years later, the jury awards you, okay, $500,000, the insurance company turns around and strokes you a check for $25,000.

You have a piece of paper that says that you're owed money. You have a defendant who is a dirt bag who does not have the ability to pay a judgment. And if you hire a collections attorney to try to collect on it, they will file bankruptcy and avoid the judgment. And so it's worth the piece of paper it's printed on, >> right? >> There are some defendants who do have assets, right? But usually defendants that have assets have more insurance to protect themselves because, as Rishi said, they're in the business of risk.

That's what insurance is for, >> right? >> It's to protect against risk. >> That's a very common probably one of the most common conversations I have to have with clients because here in the state of Georgia, the state minimum is $25,000. The most common accident is a rear end accident. It's typically by just a regular civilian. It's not like a public's truck. So, when we're dealing with damages that far exceed the insurance limit, it's always a difficult I think of it as an education, but it's always a difficult conversation to educate the client because it seems so fundamentally unfair.

>> Mhm. >> Especially given the fact the nature of I85 and you go out and you see the billboards with the uh jackpot picture where it shows like millions of dollars for a settlement. They that discrepancy doesn't register with them. We as plaintiffs attorneys are not we as plaintiffs attorneys as a whole are not doing ourselves any favors with with the marketing that is out there some people's marketing because that is not how it works. Like if you get a huge recovery you usually have a pretty huge injury and like you said there's lots of huge injuries that don't result in huge recoveries because there's not the coverage there to get it from.

>> Mhm. I mean, we we we currently represent a a young man who was paralyzed. His car broke down on the connector and he was rearended by a guy going 15 miles over the speed limit who didn't see him um despite his hazards being on and just slammed into him, paralyzed him. The guy who hit him has $25,000 in coverage. >> Yeah. >> Our guy has $75,000 in um M coverage. That's a hundred grand. It's 100 grand. That's That doesn't That doesn't even come close. >> Yeah. >> I mean, a paralysis case is a nine figure, you know, sometimes what 10 figure.

I mean, it's huge >> in terms of valuation. >> It's huge in terms of valuation. >> Yeah. >> $100,000 doesn't come close. >> How do you handle those conversations with with people, Richie? Do you have >> The limits are typically higher in med bout cases. Um and and it's not always it it's rare to have um the the injuries that far exceed insurance coverage. Um but but but it's but the limitations of coverage still are a practical limitation on um on on what you can recover for. So so we we have very similar conversations when it comes to a limited coverage case.

Um, and especially when the the injuries are permanent and and you're looking at a life care plan that but but then there's always the conversation of even at trial the the estimated life care plan is still going to be reduced to present day value and um and that's something there's a mathematical formula for it. Um, but it's but yeah, it doesn't happen as much in in the medical practice room just because there there is far more coverage than, you know, you're never going to have a doctor with 25,50 or even $100,000 limits.

They they they usually start at the very minimum at a million. Ali, something you said about it's fundamentally unfair. It is. It is fundamentally unfair, right? And and unfortunately, that's that's life, right? I mean sometimes things are fundamentally unfair, right? And I think what happens is you end up with clients who have this they they fall into the philosophical fallacy of should should be responsible for all of my damages. Well, should is a great thought, but it's not how it is actually going to play out in a lot of equations, >> right?

>> That's a tough conversation to have. It's tough to explain to people >> unlike some of uh our peers that do show the results in such a way that it makes it look like it's a windfall. That really that fundamentally bothers me because they're compensatory damages. That's what we retreat for our clients. But when it's presented presented as a a windfall, it it triggers me beyond belief. I I hate seeing it. They advertise or put out content about, you know, the dollar figures. I'm constantly putting out content about this fallacy of of should and it I talk about underinsured and uninsured motors protection so often that most of the people in my life that don't know me personally think I'm an insurance salesman.

But it it it becomes I love the way that you phrased it. It's the it's the fallacy of should. It becomes incumbent on you to know that these things happen. And this is one of the purposes of this conversation is so that people are aware that these are things, these are risks that exist. And if you have the means of protecting yourself through something like uninsured motors protection, please avail yourself of that policy because there are so many people I think Risha, you and I had a conversation one time when we were looking at the stats of completely uninsured drivers on the road.

>> Yeah. >> It's it >> it's crazy. It's gone up, by the way. It's gone up considerably. The amount of people who are driving now that have no insurance, their policies have lapsed. There's a named excluded driver in the household and the parent is giving the the car to the named excluded driver anyway. >> Yeah. >> The hit and runs uh for various reasons. Not not not to mention the ICE stuff that's going on. You get people who cause crashes and don't stick around anymore because >> Yeah. >> They're afraid of what happens when the cops show up.

I mean, that's a reality. >> Yeah. But I wanted to touch on something that the windfall situation, right? So, and and I think Rishi can probably attest to this with all the medals trials he's had. Anytime we have tried a case, you sit at the jury, you sit at the table, you sit at the pliff's table with your client, and when the jury is out there deliberating or before that, all of my clients have said the same thing. It no amount of money. I wouldn't go through this for any amount of money. Like, I just wish I could wave a magic wand and this never happened.

>> Doesn't matter if it's a big injury. Doesn't matter if it's a small injury. The money is the imperfect way that we compensate people for what they've gone through. It is an imperfect system, but it is our system. Every client I have ever sat with has said the same exact thing. I just wish this hadn't happened to me. >> Not, oh wow, I can't wait to get tens of thousands of dollars. You know, this is a lottery ticket that I'm looking to cash in, >> right? >> Like people think plaintiffs think that way, but they don't.

They don't think that way. And it goes back to what I said earlier is if you haven't gone through it, if you've never been a plaintiff and you get all these messages from the media about jackpot justice and windfall verdicts and you see plaintiffs attorneys advertising with big checks and dollar bills, like I could see how you could think that. >> Yeah. >> You know, how many clients have you called that said when you're doing the initial intake and they say, um, I'm I'm just not a latigious person.

I wasn't raised this way. I I've never thought about suing someone. And I don't know that I philosophically agree with this, but here I am. I'm going through this and I'm not being treated correctly by the insurance company and I need help. The insurance lobby, in my opinion, the insurance lobby has done a magical job of presenting claimants as somehow being crooked. even though their product that they're selling is meant for that specific thing. It's it's as if like uh TGI Fridays runs a special for ribs and you go in to to purchase a rack of ribs that they're running commercials for and and they're like, "Oh, you scumbag.

You're just here for the cheap ribs." It's like, "You you wanted me to come in for the ribs." >> It's unbelievable. >> That's a good analogy. I like that one. >> And and and our billboards actually kind of help them tell that story, right? We're only helping further that narrative when when some of the marketing is is presented in the way that it is instead of which is why I think this is pretty apt topic for for the podcast today is that there are human stories that that need to be told. Um because aside from those cases where where you don't have sufficient coverage, part of the reason why I think it's import it's important uh for your listeners to to understand well why are we talking about the human stories and it's because that is you know at trial and and even when we present this to to an adjuster or to a defense lawyer before trial um it's always with an eye towards what is what is a jury going to do with this information?

and and and a big part of of preparing for trial and and I always the way I explain it to my clients is that I help me tell your story. And so in order to tell your story, I need to understand it. I I need to understand every aspect of it. And um and Steve, the the conversation that you had with your client and understanding the human side of of what an injury that on paper looks like, it's $7,500 in medical bills, but it is so much more than that. so much more in in what in the way it affected your client's life.

Um, practically speaking, I mean, that's what you're what you're pulling out is her story that a juryy's going to hear, and you're hoping that an adjuster can appreciate that and not make your client go through that full process and and just settle the case. And you can find it in every single case. Like, every single client has human damages, right? They're different for each person, but they're there. And I think part of it is being able to pull them out of clients sometimes. >> Oh, yeah. >> People don't like talking about themselves.

They don't like they don't like sounding like they're complaining, right? I'm fine. I you know, they you ask them for specifics about how this has impacted their life and they don't want to give them to you or they can't give them to you even though they exist. Um, we're we're trying a case in October where uh a guy suffered a concussion and needs a neck surgery and we asked multiple times for before and after witnesses to testify about his injuries. >> I just I just don't I just don't have anyone who I just don't have anyone who can talk about how I'm doing and like getting this guy to say like this is how this has affected me, which it clearly has.

>> Yeah. He just doesn't want to say it. >> He's he's a rub some dirt on it type of guy >> and he doesn't want to say like, "Yeah, it's impacted me in all these ways." >> Um, but if you can get that out of clients, if you can get them to give you the stories about the things that they can't do, and there's there's plenty of them. There's people who, you know, we had a case we tried. I'll tell you a story on one we tried. We had a case against an insurance company. It was a litigation case. The medicals were not great.

She had waited three weeks to go anywhere. First place she had went was to a chiropractor. She had gaps in treatment. She got a late MRI and then she got the MRI and then she didn't do anything with it. Like she stopped treating after the MRI and the MRI had findings on it and she still didn't do anything with it. Like so it was just medically not a great case. like $8,000 in medicals. Not, you know, it is what it is. The insurance company offered next to nothing. We put it into suit. We offered to settle it for like $14,000 or something like that.

I mean, something fairly reasonable. >> And they wrote us back and said they would offer us like $7,000. >> And both sides were like stuck in the sand. And this was like they were like, "We're not paying more than $7,000. We're like, we're not taking less than $14,000." like and I think at some point we're like look we'll take 11 or 12 like that mathematically cannot do like we can't pay her bills >> right >> would lesson and they're like no no no sorry can't do it >> so we're gearing up for trial and we're asking questions this is a lady who had not been very helpful about developing the human damages until we really sat down and said look we've really got to present what your injury has meant to you because it doesn't present well as in on paper if you just look the medical it doesn't present well and she said finally she said you know before the crash I used to go to the gym four or five times a week after the crash I couldn't go to the gym and I didn't go to the gym for months it took me months to get back in the gym and that hurt me I that caused me to be depressed wasn't myself and we sat there and we go Okay, well, how are we going to prove this?

She was an LA Fitness person. They have a swipe card. They swipe you in and out of the gym. So, we asked LA Fitness for the records and lo and behold, our client is telling us the truth. Of course, she is, right? Some clients lie, but most tell you the truth. And so, we pulled the records and the records showed that she had consistently gone to the gym four to five days a week, probably walked on the treadmill, rode the exercise bike, right? And then it dropped off. and it dropped off for months and then it resumed when she got better.

>> Mhm. That was our main thing at trial. Like our main story was this impacted her life. Like for a blip of time, she was unable to do the thing she wanted to do. And we asked the jury to award, we had an offer settlement on it. I won't get into the mechanics of how they work, but if the jury awards 125% of what we ask for, the other side has to pay our fees and expenses. We asked for like $17,000 which would have triggered the offer of settlement. The jury awarded $17,000 what we asked for. It was a very reasonable ask for the case.

>> And when it was all said and done, the insurance company paid us their full $50,000 policy because of the fees and expenses claim for having to try the case. Mhm. >> But the reason I tell the story is it took us 3 years of litigation to pull the information out of the client that actually allowed us to tell her story. >> And it was the human story that actually >> And it was the human story that carried the day. >> Yes. >> Because if you try that case without that, if you we brought the son in, the son was the son was a character witness at trial, came in and testified about his mom.

If you try that case without the son's testimony and you try that case without the gym records, you get a zero. You get you get a thousand dollar verdict, you get something very nominal, jury's not they they find no value in it. What I want the listeners to take away from that story from a very practical matter when they're looking at plaintiffs attorneys and insurance companies is that the insurance company again a product that is supposed to compensate damages forced you into litigation in front of a jury in order to pay her $17,000.

That's what they're willing to do. >> That's what that's what these clients are faced with. That's what the consumers of every day are faced with. That's unreal. >> Yeah. >> I guess if it wasn't the case, we wouldn't have offices, though. >> I've wor I worked for a guy after my first year of law school. I went to UNC Chapel Hill for law school. Um, and I worked for a guy in Kerry, North Carolina, who was a uh workers comp attorney and a personal injury attorney. And his name was Kevin Bun. Uh, I don't know if he's still practicing or not, but he was he was great.

uh one of my first role models in practicing law and we're driving to court one day and he said, "Steve, if insurance companies just did what they are supposed to do, I wouldn't have a thriving practice." >> Yeah, that's right. >> And it's always stuck with me. Like, if they just did what they were supposed to do, none of us would be in business. >> That's right. >> There would be a lot fewer lawsuits. There would be a lot fewer claims that required lawyers if insurance companies just did what they were supposed to do.

>> It's a broken system, but we >> but it's a system we have. >> Yeah. >> On a final thought, Richie, I we've done a lot of auto accident discussions. You were mentioning how you rarely have to have a similar conversation about limits on the medmal side. Uh have you ever been faced with a situation where it is a medmal issue and the physicians or the facility has structured in such a way that they don't have adequate insurance set up or uh somehow getting away with having a minimum amount of insurance >> in a rare case?

Yes. But but this one it's it's a case where deliberately a um a very very well-known physician um surgeon that um has assets that are, you know, that that far exceed um what what his insurance limits reflect, but had just a million-doll policy for himself and a million- dollar policy for a surgical center. um he deliberately underinsured himself because um he wanted to be able to present. Um so on paper he looks like he's judgment proof, >> but knowing his reputation um we knew that he had assets far beyond that.

And sure enough, we found real estate holdings. um you know, he was constantly taking his his cash assets and transferring them into into real estate holdings under separate LLC's and um and his gamesmanship with trying to keep that from being discovered actually jeopardized all of it because of the way that um we he crosscolateralized it. It was all kind of as you know we could trace that it was all revenue from his his medical practice that bought all of these real estate investments and him like trying to conceal that in discovery um brought it to the forefront and the judge actually forced that you know basically said that this the jury is going to hear about this because there was a period of damages element to it but um but no it typically there yes when you do have that kind of issue.

Um, one of the first things that that we look at and and this is a little bit unique to medical malpractice is that the bills um are often times they they're the medical bills that tend to be an impediment to getting full compensation in like a car accident case. the medical bills are the easiest things to wipe out completely in a medical malpractice case because it's often that's it's part of the deal that if you're going to settle this case, you're going to first wipe out >> the entirety of the medical bills.

Um, and and also all the co-pays. >> I wanted to just touch on that briefly because I I want listeners to know that even if they're dealing with facilities, they still run the risk that there may not be enough coverage. This isn't something that's completely unique to auto accident cases. >> It's a possibility. Yeah, it'd be very rare. Um and it and it would, you know, if you deal with if if you're dealing with an underinsured medical facility, um you're already on the verge of a pretty good liability aspect of a Medau case.

Um just because it it just like with drivers um the the less scrupulous drivers are going to be the ones with minimum limits coverage. Um the less scrupulous physicians um that are are often cutting corners and escorting the system. The ones that deliberately set up, you know, um underinsured >> scenarios. I hadn't really thought about that, but what a scary idea that is. >> Yeah. like that there's like medical facilities that are underinsuring and >> purpose >> know. Yeah. purposefully and know that they're putting their patients in a I mean precarious position.

It's that's a scary thought to think that that's out there. >> I've I've seen something very common in um not nursing homes. You know, there's a lot of slip and falls in in nursing homes. So, a lot of liability there. I've seen a lot of these facilities being insured by I don't know if now I have to re recall my memory either the insurance company was offshore or the holding entity of the nursing company was offshore so they're they have like 100,000 300,000 or 500,000 combined uh limit like total limits in terms of >> handling any claims that are coming through how scary is that right so like you're in this part of your life where you're like most susceptible to be taken advantage of.

>> And you've got people who are distraught emotionally and they're looking for a place to put their family member, a place to for them to be supported and loved and not and and to die with dignity or recover with dignity, whatever it might be. And there are these predators out there that are taking advantage for profit. Like that is I don't know how people sleep at night that do that. And I hope that that's a a small minority of the businesses that are operating in that space. But to know that there's even one of those out there, >> yeah, >> is a scary thought.

>> I got to tell you, the the way you're framing it and you said some of the unscrupulous characters because of the work that that we do. I even when we hold the fall event for example obviously we've got the general cut commercial liability insurance on an annual basis we'll call our broker and we add additional coverage specifically for the event god forbid something happens to a child or you know just a freak accident we have cop county police department come here but you know we're right off of Johnson Ferry if there's an accident that has nothing to do with us and they come over the railing already I'm thinking ahead.

I'm like, I want to make sure that there's enough to compensate people. >> Yeah, that's what insurance is for, right? I mean, like, if you screw up and you you should have insurance for it, you should be willing to say to your your client or your patient like, "Hey, man, like I Yeah, I screwed up. Like, here's my insurance. They'll make it right." >> Yeah. >> And then you have to hope that they'll make it right. Which >> is the second part of the equation that's problematic. But I mean, the fact that people don't I've always admired the lawyers who if they miss a statute, they know they've committed malpractice.

They turn it right over to their carrier. >> They send a letter to their client. They say, "Look, I can't advise you anymore, but I've turned this over to my malpractice carrier, and you may have a claim against me." >> I don't know if you've ever gotten any of those letters. Someone's come in with one and said, "I got this from my former lawyer. I don't know what it means." I've always admired that >> like >> as a lawyer to have the integrity to say I messed up and I lost your claim and this is my fault and here's my insurance information.

Luckily, I've never had to write one of these letters, but I've seen them. Right. >> Yeah. >> And and I've I've always thought highly of the people that are that are willing to do that because I'm sure you've seen the other side of it. Absolutely. >> Where someone comes in and says, "I just think something's wrong with my lawyer. I think there's something wrong with my claim. My lawyer won't return my calls. My wreck happened in 2021 and it's 2025 and I've never gotten a recovery." And you're like, "Oh, I have a feeling I know what's going on here." But for the listeners, there's a two-year statute of limitations after an auto accident case or an injury case to bring your claim or to file suit.

So, if you take it to an attorney and they fail to file suit or resolve your claim prior to the two years, that is technically malpractice. Well, technically that's mal legal malpractice >> if the claim is barred by the statute. Correct. >> Right. >> Yeah. Take out of the equation tolling and all of that, but yes, that's >> Steve, I've had an amazing time with you. Um, I think Lonard Danian is doing great work. I look I think of yourself. I think of Harmon very highly. Rishi, you already know I have mad respect for you.

Thank you both for coming today. Usually, Steve, at the end of the conversation, I turn it over to the guest to either give us a final thought or if you feel like there was something that I should have asked that I didn't ask. Uh if you want to share that with our listeners and and give us a some golden wisdom. >> So, I I'll give you a final thought, right? A client and a lawyer should have a relationship. It's why it's called the attorney client relationship. A client should know their lawyer and know what their lawyer is doing.

And a lawyer should be able to ask a client for information that moves their case along so that they can present it in the best light. The best attorney client relationships happen because both sides want to get to know each other. The lawyer wants to help the client and they want to make themselves available and they want to get to know that client. If you are working with someone who won't talk to you, you've never talked to the client. Uh you've you've never talked to your lawyer. You don't know who your lawyer is.

I mean, we've heard I've heard so many stories like I don't know the name of my lawyer. Oh, I'm at a firm where my lawyer has changed five times in one year. Those should be red flags >> because that's not what it has to be. And I'll use the should word, that's not what it should be, right? It's one thing that I've always prided us on, which is it's not just the outcome, it's the journey, it's the process, and it's how you get there. >> Beautiful. Very well said, Richie. >> I I I can't say it any better.

I I think it's it's perfect. Um, for your listeners, uh, really think about the the the when you're when you're trying to talk to your attorney about, um, how the the accidents affect you, think about Steve's story, um, and and and really dig into the details about it because that's that is often um, the the key uh, the thing that really adds the value and makes the makes or breaks a case is your your ability to convey the human side of the story. I think it's a great topic. >> Absolutely. Well, thank you both for coming on to the podcast.

Listeners, thank you so much for listening. Again, uh I always ask you to like, comment, share, and subscribe. Mom, my number one listener. I love you, and I can't wait to have another episode for you next week. Take care, everybody. >> Thanks so much. Thank you so much.